Bouldering

Answer the poll (by going to home then all things climbing) and feel free to post new ideas or other wise keep it groovy

Rufio says NO

Evan says holds should be allowed to share tape!

Nooo

havent been to VE in a while, was out in cali - missed the comp and all the new route setting. uhh.... what new rules?

they have colors for each rating now... only certain people can set problems... and only one piece of tape per hold

will be at VE tonight to see this silliness... anyone else?

I'll be there, probably grumbling as well. Yup, definitely expect some grumbling.

that is gay that alex b cant set routes

yeah man, im 86 years old and have been climbing since i was 22...

It's obvious that most (if not all) of the bouldering regulars at VE have issues with the new system. Rather than just slagging it off though, we should be coming up with constructive ideas to improve or replace what has been put into effect. Presenting the management with a possible solution or improvement is a lot better than going up to, say, Phil or Bela and saying "this new system blows".


The current (new) rules:
1) problems are now color coded, one color per grade through v6 +
2) one piece of tape per hold
3) no more than 4-5 problems at any given tape color/grade
4) only route-setters or people on an approved list are allowed to set


My problems with the current (new) rules:
1) Grading of problems is hardly precise under the current system. I agree that some sort of grading identification system needed to be implemented, but as is problems are already being misgraded. By itself this isn't really too bad, I mean, we're just climbing indoors, but misgrading of problems defeats the purpose of grading them in the first place. No real consensus is going into the grading of problems before they're being taped, and this can lead to varying degrees of over or undergrading based on the setter's strengths.

2) In a gym with ample bouldering room this rule wouldn't be as bad, but at VE we have a very limited amount of space to work with. For example, someone might place a rather large or obstrusive hold on a normally highly trafficked area of the cave, effectively creating a "dead zone" of unusable space around said hold. Also, the incidence of missing t-nuts is pretty high, further limiting the potential for setting. I understand the reasoning behind the rule (it will force more "creative" setting, the cave will look less intimidating and confusing to bouldering new-comers, etc...), but with our current facilities it just isn't conducive to a fun, high volume cave.

3) Once again, I understand why this would appear to be a good idea, but in practice it creates problems tantamount to what it sought to fix. Many of the current crop of boulderers at VE are pushing and climbing at increasingly difficult levels, and the cap on the amount of problems at the higher levels is very discouraging to that. I know that too much tape in the cave "looks bad", but putting a damper on our potential to improve is hardly a good solution. Also, limiting the amount of problems at a certain difficulty won't necessarily stimulate setting at the lower levels, which I believe was at least a side-goal of the new rules.

4) This is probably the rule that I have the least qualms with, although several VE cave stalwarts seem to have been left off this list (Alex B. *cough*). Quality control of problems/routes is an important issue, because if the customer doesn't enjoy the climbing he/she is probably less likely to come back. With that said, people who actually boulder and utilize the cave on a frequent basis should be the primary setters there. In the past, some folks infrequent to the cave have put up large, obstrusive holds that for the most part just sat there, taking up valuable space. While the individual moves or problems that these people put up on those holds might have been cool, the large nature of the holds severely limited setting in proximity to them. This dovetails with my position on the per-hold tape limitations.


My recommendations for the cave:
1) To address the issue of grading accuracy, I suggest a "range" system, where "easy" could be v0-v2, "medium" v3-5, and "hard" v6+, or some other breakdown of grades. Similar systems are implemented by gyms like the Spot in CO, a gym that specializes in bouldering. No color coding would be necessary, problems could be taped as they were before the new rules, although with more care to use distinctive patterns and colors. To mark grades, on the starting tape of each problem the difficulty, date set, and author could be written on there (with a sharpie or paint pen). Also, consensus is key. Several people should climb on something to get a shared opinion of the grade.

2) I think a middle ground of sorts could be reached for this issue. On the one hand, one piece of tape per hold is horribly limiting, but on the other, holds with a ridiculous amount of tape on them are, well, ridiculous.To remedy this, I suggest a cap on the amount of tape per hold, maybe something like 3-4? That way, holds can still see multiple uses, but they should never approach the level of abusrdity that say, the voodoo brain did in the last cave (I think it had 10 pieces of tape on it, and yes, I was guilty of some of that).

3) Simply said, I don't think that there should be a "cap", per se, on the amount of problems per grade. However, we still need to somehow get more moderate and easy problems set. The solution (at least in my head): require that for every hard problem that goes up, one easier one does as well. For example, say for every problem above v4, there should be a problem below that mark as well. This would encourage balance yet wouldn't stifle our potential to improve either.

4) I think that this is generally a pretty good rule. Route-setters and people who boulder should set problems, simple as that. Before taping, people should get some other folks on the problem, and at least try to reach a consensus on the grade. If you're not a regular boulderer and want to set in the cave, approach one of the regulars and have them tape it. Forerun every problem before it goes up.


If anyone actually read all of that, congratulations.

Wow thats perfect... Cheech your my hero... wait.... shouldn't you be working? HAH

i read all of that and it was great
(ps. Alex B needs to be able to set his routes are great and also the alexes need to look out after each other)

I agree with everything Cheech said, all 19 pages of it....
Along with that I'd like to add something.

These new rules have added to already outrageous "number game" lots of climbers play.
Remember folks, we climb because its fun. Not because we're chasing a grade. Although some people do want to attain a certain grade be it route or boulder problem. Thats fine, I like to climb hard stuff too(phalic jokes aside). But don't forget climbing should be about fun and exciting problems.
So when you set, try to focus more on making the problem good as opposed to what color your base tape is going to be.
That being said, I would love to see a couple awesome V1's + V2's that are just as cool as the hard stuff going up.
I'll do my best to practice what I preach also.

Hey there all. It's Bela. I wanted to toss in my two cents regarding the boulder cave, new rules, feedback from all (thanks Cheech - I did indeed read it all). Anyway, here it goes. I know the recent changes in the cave have a number of climbers concerned. Rest assured that we do everything for the good of the gym. The changes are a result of what I think came from the disorganization of the cave, the routes that flow through it, and the people setting within. There were a few things that needed to be addressed.
1 - We need a difficulty system AND it needs to be easy to understand. Climbers need to be able to find problems at their level without much difficulty.
2 - We need to control who puts up the problems. Too many people had access to the tape and it was being used irresponsibly.
3 - We need to turn over the problems with more regularity. No sense in having problems nobody is climbing. I know you'll all agree there is often stuff up that sees no traffic because holds are missing or it was poor quality to begin with.

So how do we go about pleasing everyone? It's simple, really. Come up with a system, embrace it for its good qualities and ideas, and tweak it to fit the structure with which it lies. The new system IS NOT perfect, nor do I claim it to be. But it is a start. I welcome the feedback. With that said, please be sympathetic to the fact that I has to represent the masses as well; masses that come to me more often then any of you know. This is the casual climber who is trying to learn bouldering but is intimedated by the chaos of tape in the cave with no way to discern problem from problem, the amount of wall space above the cave that is home to routes that have an indistinguishable start, etc.

Because this is my first posting, I wish to make clear that I will do everything I can to make to the gym better for all who climb here. Please help me, help Phil (who heads up all our routesetting, bouldering included), and we'll make it work.

Cheech - I wanted to reply to a couple of your concerns. I value your feedback very much. We don't need to cap the number of problems per grade (I know there will be a lot of hard problems). We can have as many as we can comfortably fit in the cave. It's not the amount of tape we had last time, but the fact the it left no navigation to the grade. If one color doesn't handle the traffic, we'll adapt to change it. We should be treating these like routes. Put one up, tear and old one down. The cave can be in constant rotation without the need for full teardown every 4-6 weeks, because the problems won't get stale. That should help a bit. Also, because this was not clearly drawn up prior to the completion of the comp, problems went up without thought to the rating scale. I bet it will take a month or so to get it rocking.

Thanks for reading through this. Again, we want the feedback so keep it coming.
-bela (Scott Williams)

Thanks for listening Bela... We appreciate it and this this will be running smooth in due time

i like the idea of cyclcling the problems out like routes

I'm glad that you responded to our concerns Bela. I agree that the tape should br limited to the few who boulder. I also think that no one should set alone, that means your problem should be ran before it is taped. The main problems i have with the system is the no double taped holds and the grading system. The cave is far to small to have the holds not to be doubled taped. I do agree that there should be some sort of grading system, but it just shouldn't be just raw grades, considering all of us have different styles, it is hard to pin point an exact grade. It would a lot easier if the grading system was more of a range the an exact grade. Maybe V0-V2, V3-V5, and V6+. There some other problems that other people have. I think the best way to deal with this problem is to have a sit-down with all or most of the bouldering community at V.E to discuss the situation and tweak the new rules so the benefit everybody. (If you have any questions post or pull me out at the gym)

Thanks for listing , Bill

Alex J. wrote:i like the idea of cyclcling the problems out like routes

Totally agree with this idea as well. It'll keep us consistently moving things around, rather than getting bored with the same movements albeit it being on the other end of the cave.

With the one tape per hold rule (in order to rotate problems out easily) I feel that larger features, in Cheech's words "dead zones" should be able to be part of multiple routes if necessary. The same should go with feet, more specifically foot jibs.

My final order of business is the way its rated, color is a quick identifier for people that normally don't climb in the cave. But in the world of rating and sandbagging and over rating (i know my V0 and V1 seem very overrated I can agree in some areas, but im going off of the multiple types of setting i have encountered in other gyms I've been to, illinois gyms and out of state gyms and factoring in my setting style i have in my garage) Everyone has their own style, its apparent in problems and in routes in the gym. I think a Easy, Medium, Hard, way of identification is the best way as a few have said before. I feel that beginning and moderate boulderers would be chasing the grade within the color system, and like justin said it's not what its about. Not to mention it would widen the spectrum and factor in each individual setters style in terms of difficulty.

We can work all of this out to make it pretty favorable in everyones mind. We all have good ideas and good intentions. I'm with Toth, lets all sit down and talk about it, we would get all on the same page and get things done a lot faster.

I hope this bouldering thing works out i really think i talk session would sort things out alot faster

after a few weaks with the new cave only 1 0r 2 new routes have been put up. (as opposed to like 4-5 in a weak with the old cave) The idea of having peolpe go and get holds if they want to put something up is not praticall. Boulders like myself dont go to ve to spend there 3 hours getting and putting up holds. They go to climb. Routesetters get paid to spend there time putting up routes not boulderars. The old way where a bunch of holds got put up and then you set around them was better because it didnt require you spend all your time everytime you went into the climbing gym to put up a route, all you had to do was to put up tape. the rating system and the list can stay(list=dont make it so strict let everyone have a chance to try and set whoknows, maybe they cant climb well but they can set wonderfully) but reconsider the not filling the cave
Thanks

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I don't know how anyone else feels, but I'm not a big fan of having to 'Set' our own boulder problems in the gym. At first I thought this was a good idea and we would get some quality problems going down in the cave. And I have to say that I'm cool with most of the other rules down there. But as Alex pointed out we our spending all of our so called climbing time picking out holds and trying to set the perfect problem. I thikn if we went back to the old system of flooding the wall and adding a few strategic easy areas that more would be done in the cave more often.

I'm only bring this up because we all want to climb when we are there on a daily basis. Is it fair that people who boulder are being forced to make their own problems? Do rope climbers have to take the time to set their routes on a daily or even weekly basis? I think not! Bela, if your reading this before I get a chance to talk to you I'm sorry. I know this isn't the best place for me to be talking about the subject, but something needed to be said.

AMEN

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